Turning Your OMS into a Customer Experience Powerhouse with Mike Micucci

Jay Topper: [00:00:00] The world of commerce is undergoing a revolution. Today's consumer expects a buying experience that is nothing short of perfection. Your company's digital IQ has quickly become a new standard that drives growth and loyalty. Welcome to Chiefly Digital: The Digital Leader's Guide to Modern Commerce.

Welcome to this edition of Chiefly Digital. I am super pleased to have with me today Rich Lyons. The CEO and founder of Life is Sales and the CEO and founder of Lyons Consulting Group. Rich, thanks for joining me today. 

Rich Lyons: Jay, thanks for having me. I've been looking forward to, uh, being on and talking with you, so thank you very much.

Jay Topper: I've been looking forward to it as well. I think we'll get into some, uh, some emotional and social things around leadership and, and being the, bringing our best self to work every day. My first question out of the gate, I have two of them and they're, [00:01:00] they're right off your LinkedIn. Why life is sales? I know that has some depth to it. Sure. Uh, cause I've listened to you, but why, why Life is Sales? What does that mean? 

Rich Lyons: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, I was, I was an engineer, right? So I'm an undergraduate electrical engineer, computer science. Sales was nothing I kind of expected I would get into to be honest. And. If I were being totally honest, it's, you know, it was beneath me, right?

Sales is beneath me, right? You know, I'm going to have a different job, you know, but over time, you know, it's funny, you come out of school. I had a, uh, an internship at General Motors. I'm like, I can't do this. I can't be an engineer. I can't. So then, then you're kind of thrown into, well, what are you going to do?

You're going to do consulting or you're going to do technical sales. Uh, I ended up in consulting, but. Kind of opened my eyes around sales and I think, you know, we're all selling, you know, that's the short answer for me. I never realized it, but, you know, when I shorted, you know, in my career in [00:02:00] consulting and then I went back, uh, to Kellogg and got my MBA and then, You know, became a director of sales and marketing and got, you know, much more in the business development side.

I just realized that we're selling all the time. Like as a father, I was always selling, you know, my daughters on their potential and what they could do in life. And you're selling employees on things. You're not always selling, you know, a product or a service, but always selling. So I just thought that was very important.

To kind of take the, I had that negative, you know, thought about it, you know, the sleazy salesman, the car salesman, you know, so to kind of get away from that, um, and try to do that, and I'll be launching a book actually. Next year, um, in the spring called life of sales. So more about my journey and just like salespeople can be great.

You know, we're serving other people. We're trying to solve people's problems. Like there's nothing wrong with sales. 

Jay Topper: Second thing on your LinkedIn profile, I'm going to look down to read it. So that's why I'm looking down. Cause I didn't memorize this one, [00:03:00] but I'd love for you to explain this because we all get to pick.

Like that thing we put right next to our name that people see. And so what you picked was helping leaders, business owners, and salespeople live richly and shine brightly with the life sales philosophy. So 

Rich Lyons: you really believe this. I do. I mean, I think, you know, obviously it's evolved over time and starting my own company and, you know, and being, I never delivered.

You know, when I was with Lion CG, right. But so I was always selling, I was always out with partnerships. I was always out with customers. And so it was just informed me on how important our network is, how important connections are, how important relationships are. And then this concept, like sales is not a sleazy thing.

Like if you're doing it right. Everyone in the company is trying to serve the customer. You know, it's easy to talk about being customer first and putting the customer first, but not many companies can really live that. [00:04:00] Like, can you put yourself in the customer's shoes, understand what they're going through and help them solve a problem and then trust, which is a big thing, that everything else is going to work out, you know?

So I think, you know, from that perspective, it's been a journey for me and kind of bringing together my business and my personal life and, you You know, it's funny. My name is Rich, right? So I talk about living richly. My middle name is actually Bright, you know, which is a family name. Yeah. Which is a family name.

So I have this, you know, live into my name, like live richly, shine brightly. And love lionheartedly with my, you know, my last name being lion. So, you know, I kind of tried to live into that and I tried to bring that into my company as well. Like, can we actually serve the customer? Can we be 100 percent referenceable?

Like, think about that. 100 percent referenceable. Every customer has a good, you know, Encounter with us, whether we win or lose, right, that they feel good about [00:05:00] their interaction with LionCG, and we really strove for that, and it made a huge difference to our whole culture. 

Jay Topper: I think what separates us from a lot of other species is that need for human connection, and certainly I've got that impression.

You recognize that the day I met you. When you talk about customer centricity, and you're a thousand percent correct, every single vendor, retailer, platform, SI, the IRS, the government, it doesn't what, they all claim that they're doing it for the customer, for the people, for And when, when did the light bulb go on for you about what customer centricity, that empathy, and really being in their shoes?

When did that hit you? Did you have that inherently from day one or was there a moment? Yeah, I don't 

Rich Lyons: think so. I think, you know, I learned a ton about culture being in different cultures, right. Working in other companies, you know, I came up through the dot com boom and bust, which was a crazy time and worked at Whitman heart, which became March [00:06:00] 1st, got bought by divine.

Like I went through all of that. So I think when I started my own company, that's when you get your first chance to say, Okay, what have I learned? What did I like? What don't I like? And what can I implement? And I think it was, you know, we kind of started off with how can we be different, right? And we started off with this money back guarantee, like literally like unconditional money back guarantee.

Like if you're not happy, we'll give you your money back. And we changed that over time, and I'll tell you why, but we changed it over time because we had, we were ready to launch a site, it was going to be our first Magento launch, and the guy called me, he's like, hey, our business isn't doing that well, I want all my money back.

So it didn't have anything to do with what we did, and you know, so I sent him a check, I think it was like 60 grand, like, I thought we were going to go out of business, like, I remember. I called one of my friends and I was in tears. Like, I was like, I know I have to do this because it is my word and I would never break my word and it's a promise.

And, uh, [00:07:00] and you know, integrity is critical for me, but it could kill us. Um, and I sent the money back and it was like, we had a trade show. If you remember the IRCE show here in Chicago, we had that the next week and we had these shirts printed because it was a bowling shirt company and our booth. So we're going to.

announced this big launch and it was going to be a big deal and now nothing and so I'm kind of there with my tail between my legs you know like this is a huge failure like we didn't launch this site and so I'm telling people the story and people are like What did you say? Like, wait, wait a second.

Like, what did you say? Like, you sent money back? Like you, you did what? You send someone a check? Like what? You know, I remember meeting with Bob Schwartz and Roy Rubin out in LA and the Magento offices at the time and same thing. He's like, you did what? You sent the money back? You know? And so it wasn't the, the.

[00:08:00] Reaction I expected and it became one of those stories that, you know, people talked about and they said, I want to work with this company because they do what they say they're going to do. And over time we changed it to be a satisfaction guarantee. Meaning if you're not satisfied with something that we've done, we're going to fix it for free.

And if you're still not satisfied, we'll give your money back. So it wasn't an unconditional, like, Hey, you know, or, you know, so we kind of changed it, but the, the intent was still there. And from my perspective, like, If the customer is not happy, aren't you going to do that anyway? I mean, aren't you going to fix it?

Aren't you going to give them their money back? Like, I don't, like, I couldn't imagine having a company. That's when the aha moment came on. Like, I'm going to do it anyway. I'm going to talk to you and say, Jay. What's fair here? Do we split it? Am I giving you all your money back? Like what, like what does fair mean to you?

Excuse me. And let's work that out. [00:09:00] And fair means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. But that's when I got into this, like, we have to do what's right for the customer. That's what we're in business for. And we can't have an unhappy customer. That was my feeling. We can't have someone saying these guys suck.

Can't be. Everyone had to be referenceable, and I think, sometimes that was really hard with developers. Like, think about this, like, the developer's doing work, and then the customer's coming and saying, oh, this isn't right, you need to give me money back and make an accommodation, and the developer feels very defensive, and then looks at the SOW, and we can fight this, like, Rich, like, we did everything, look at the SOW, and I'm like, you're 100 percent right.

But the customer's right as well, because they have a perception on something that they think is fair and right. Think about this, it's a three million dollar customer over the next three years, let's say, and we're giving them 10, 000 right now. Sometimes their view of [00:10:00] fairness is different than our view, and we can make that accommodation.

Now, we don't want to be taken advantage of, you understand. But there is somewhere in between where we can work something out, and everyone can be happy, and, and I think that was always my thinking, and then we did trainings, we did, you know, we did this consultative professionalism training with our people, and we had this concept called yes and, right, so we kind of did this training, and you could say, yes, of course we can do it, and, and, and, Let's talk about the impact on timeline, the impact on budget.

Let's talk about priorities. Let's have a relationship and a conversation and make sure that this works for all of us. It's fair, right? So this fairness, this understanding the customer, you know, and training people like you had mentioned, you know, social, emotional intelligence. Like we did some trainings for people to understand feelings, fear, hurt, anger, sadness, joy.

I mean, all the customer wants is to hear you to say, as I hear [00:11:00] you, I'm going to look into it and I will get back to you as soon as I can. They don't want you to go, it's not our fault. We didn't do it. You know? And so we did trainings around that for people to understand, like, that's literally like we're saying customer first means put yourself in the customer's shoes.

They could be losing their job. They could be losing hundreds of thousands of dollars. Every minute that website is down during Black Friday and Cyber Monday. This is real life stuff. And so, listen, you have to understand, you have to be over there. And that's not easy, right? Because we want to be over here and defend ourselves and wait.

No, no, I didn't do it. You know, so I think the important part was, you know, for me, and it gave me an opportunity to get in front of my company, to train people, to share what I had learned. And it created a really great culture for us. And, you know, I still obviously have a lot of friends who were customers, a lot of friends who were employees.

I mean, we [00:12:00] were real. I don't know how else to put it, 

Jay Topper: right? As a retailer, I look for that trust, that rational conversation and, and somebody to recognize my emotions because, you know, when, uh, I guess as the customer, I sort of sometimes would put those first. Now that I'm a provider, I'm like, it goes both ways when you talk about fear, hurt, anger, sadness, joy.

So I like those and you're, you're talking to someone and trying to figure out where they may be coming from. It's also important to know where you are, right, on that spectrum, and what you might be feeling, and how do you couch that in the moment so you can make the right decision? How do you navigate that?

Rich Lyons: Yeah, Jay, you're spot on. I mean, I think, to me, awareness is the key, like, because you don't have to do anything differently. But, you know, I had to learn over time, like, just to be aware of what was going on. Because, you know, growing up, when we grew up, someone asked you, are you scared? You're like, no, I'm not scared.

Right? I mean, that's, I mean, you'd always answer that. Why would I be scared? You know, what [00:13:00] do you think, I'm weak? You know, and, and, and feelings had this connotation of weakness. You know, so I had to grow myself and grow out of that. I think part of that is, you know, getting married. Part of it is having children.

You know, we talked about, I feel like the Grinch, like my heart grew, like, you know, you have children and your heart grows, right? And, and you just, you feel so much, right? And I think, you know, I did a lot of, you know, growth work, you know, I did a lot of social emotional intelligence training just to get to the idea that, Feelings aren't bad.

You know, that was for me to get feelings aren't bad, right? My fear is always going on. I get hurt. You know, I get angry. I feel sad. I have joy. And we all want to say, I just want to have joy. But life is not that. Like the richness of the experience of life, to have everything and all those feelings going on at once.

And it's not at a 10, right? That was what I had to learn for me. Like someone says, are you afraid? [00:14:00] That's a one to 10 question. So you don't say no, you say, Oh, I'm a little afraid or, you know, or I'm a really afraid or I'm not, or, you know, because there's a lot, you know, getting on an elevator is kind of a really weird anxiety producing thing.

That's fear, right? You say, Oh, nice weather. Right. And someone doesn't respond. They don't even look at you that, or they took, you know, And then you're hurt, you know, but to understand like what I was trying to get people, it's like a superpower. If you can understand what's going on in here, the tornado, then it does allow you to understand what's going on out there.

So to your point, you're a hundred percent right. Like if I could just identify fear, hurt, anger, sadness, joy, and know what was going on with me now, I still get to choose what you were saying exactly right, how I want to be. Regardless of what's going on in here, right? Like I had a coach kind of, [00:15:00] you know, everyone, we used to always say, Oh, I woke up on the wrong side of the bed.

Right. And he'd be like, it doesn't matter. You still get to choose how you want your day to be. And I was like, wait a second. Like. That was like a big aha moment for me. Like, it doesn't matter how I'm feeling, cause that's all going on in here all the time anyway. But if I can be aware of it and know, then I can be here present in the moment with you and still choose who I want to be with you.

I don't have to tell you, Hey, I'm really scared. Hey, what you said really hurt my feelings. Hey, I'm really angry at you. I don't have to say anything. But by being aware, then I have choice. 

Jay Topper: You know, this is, uh, we did not talk about this one, but I'm going to throw it out there anyway, and it only just came to me while you were talking, why I, I embrace something that Colin Powell, one of his leadership principles from long ago, is, is around perpetual optimism being a force multiplier, and And I experience fear, hurt, sadness, uh, joy and [00:16:00] anger and, and all these, all these emotions.

But I'm also just an absolute optimist. And I look up and I just, I don't know if it's hope, but I, as you were talking, I was thinking that, that the reason I, I have that is because it is that richness of life that I'm appreciating. It is the moment I'm in and, uh, Experience that someone else is sharing with me, whether it's their sadness, fear, joy, anger.

And, and at the end of the day, if I can just slow my brain down a little bit when I get caught up on some of the negative feelings, there's a, there's an appreciation for that. And that leads to optimism that there's, you know, the sun's going to come up tomorrow and it's going to be a happy day. And kind 

Rich Lyons: of gratitude, right?

And the blessing, the blessing, like, you know, to be here for another day because we don't know, right? And I, and I agree with you. I think that's the choice, regardless of how I feel. And, you know, and I, I mentioned trust earlier, and that was always a big thing for me. I choose to [00:17:00] trust in life. I choose to trust in people and that people, you know, at their core are good, right?

And that doesn't mean people haven't taken advantage of me and this and that, but I'd rather trust someone and have them prove it the other way than to be kind of like, I don't trust anyone, right? And, and, you know, the world's a dangerous place and, and it's chaotic and it's this and that. I'd rather take, you know, what you're saying, the optimistic choice.

I trust life, right? And I'm not the little kid anymore whose parents got divorced, right? My parents divorced when I was in high school. And so I thought anger was terrible. I never saw a kind of productive outcome with my parents using anger. So then, you know, I get into a relationship and my wife wants to talk about stuff and I say, No, I'm not talking about it.

I'm going to sleep. You know, total conflict avoider, right? But that doesn't work, you know? And it's kind of, you get this concept of, right, you have all this energy. I was an [00:18:00] electrical engineer, right? So yeah, I think about circuits. I think of life in terms of flow on circuits. You have all this energy, just feelings.

All those feelings are energy. What do I want to do with it? If I have a limited amount of life force in me and it, and it could be all that fear, anger, hurt, sadness, joy. Can I direct it towards a purpose? Can I use it for something great? Instead of like, think about reactivity, right? We all react to things.

If I want something to change, I need to change it. But can I take that entry, instead of reacting and thwarting someone else, can I focus it on this purpose that I want, something I want, like, and that's not easy because then I do have to have an idea of what I do want, and what's the positive I want to create, and can I put my positive dent in the world and use my energy towards that?

What are we trying to accomplish? What are we trying to do here? And let's direct our energy there. [00:19:00] I 

Jay Topper: think that's fantastic, and I think we all, we all have those. Those moments, I think, uh, is, is I have, like you probably in some way, shape or form, been able to, to know when I can trust myself and sometimes, you know, we'll get into self care on my next question, but first I want to ask you to take on a really simple one of trust.

That's a, that's a easy one to take on. Mark, Mark Twain, maybe he's not the guy that said it. This is who I think said it. Uh, said, how do you figure out if you can trust someone? And the answer is you trust them. What happens when you get that violation of trust, when you feel that violation of trust, or maybe you feel like.

You've, you've violated someone else's trust. How do you take that on? That's, that's complex. 

Rich Lyons: It is. I mean, I think, you know, there's a lot of honesty and, and a lot of chance to repair, right? Like none of us are perfect. And, you know, when, when someone breaks that and it's happened with me and. You try to give someone the benefit of the doubt, but you know, there's been times where people [00:20:00] have taken advantage of me or they've done something that's, you know, not all right with me.

I mean, I can think, like I've had hundreds and hundreds of clients, right? And I can think of two times of those hundreds and hundreds of clients and even more meetings, right? But two meetings where I ever raised my voice. And used my anger on purpose, but those were chosen. Like one was, I went, I was doing a visit with an account manager, we're visiting a bunch of accounts on the West coast and.

Go into this one account and is there anything I should know? No, you know, it's just kind of a love tour, right? You know, shake hands, kiss babies kind of thing. And we happen to be there for a status call with the team. So I'm there with the account manager and some of their team and then my team's all on the phone.

And we're having a meeting, everything's fine, and then the CEO walks in and he started kind of, uh, Escalating and started yelling at his people, which made me uncomfortable. Right. Um, but then he started yelling [00:21:00] at my people, like on the phone. And think of that, like you're in a moment, you have all this feeling going on.

You have a choice. I had a choice. Right. And that was kind of like, when you're saying beyond, you know, broke trust, went beyond a boundary that I was not okay with. And I, you know, and so I'm like, made my choice right there. Like, listen, if you want to yell at someone, you can yell at me, but never yell at my people.

Never. Right. And, you know, and hopefully you don't have those lines that cross, but can you use your anger and I'll call it intention, respectfully, set boundaries. And so I think, you know, there are times where we have to, you know, my word would be, we have to be on our own side, you know, and I think your anger and your intention and your assertion can help then.

It doesn't mean you have to yell. Like we're just talking about an intention to say, don't yell at my people. [00:22:00]

Jay Topper: One thing I found in my first B2B job here for the last four or five months compared to direct to consumer is you always have these direct to consumer customers that are just livid. And I listened to some of these phone calls of overseeing customer service and the things they say are just absolutely incredible.

And it's a little more sophisticated though, on the B2B front. What surprised me is. The way that different customers and potential customers treat their platform providers or their SIs and there's There's almost a, with some, not a lot, maybe, but with some, there's almost a right, you know, because, you know, as if you're buying a hamburger at McDonald's, which isn't really a relationship like a platform or an SI is, but I am a little bit disappointed in some of the, the interactions that I've, that I've witnessed, frankly, uh, both now and even before when I was a retailer and I was watching other, other, you know, fellow retailers deal with platform and vendors, it's tough.

I mean, I got to [00:23:00] think you guys are almost every single day dealing with something that's outside of a comfort zone with regards to, you know, anger, fear, you know, some of the negative, you know, sort of. It 

Rich Lyons: is. I mean, and, and obviously you have to watch those things closely, right? Like you kind of want to have some principles and values and you, and you kind of want to have those conversations with.

Customers, if they get out of line, out of hand, right? I mean, and, and do it in a respectful way, but there is a point where it's not okay, right? I mean, being abusive and, and you can understand someone's upset, their website's down and maybe they're, you know, yelling and whatever, but. Let's not be abusive.

Um, and, and how do you make that relationship more of a partnership? Right? It's not a, like, you own me, right? You bought me. You could do whatever you want to me. This is a relationship. It's a partnership. We're in it together. And if we can work on this together, let's solve the [00:24:00] problem and let's figure it out.

And we'll get there together instead of like, you know, I'm upset. And part of that, like we were talking about that superpower to understand why someone's upset, their job could be on the line. You know, we never kind of really know what's going on with that other person. So giving them kind of the benefit of the doubt, but I think you're right.

There's times where it's just too much and something has to be done. 

Jay Topper: Yeah, I think having those personal guardrails, I do think it becomes easier to have those when you come a little bit more financially independent. And maybe the fear that that side of fear maybe is a little bit less. I know early on.

There were some, you know, just abusive people in my professional life that I look back on, like, I would never tolerate that now, but I did then. And, uh, when you get into, uh, you know, I'm, uh, we talked a little bit about it before of, of self care and, you know, taking care of yourself and, and, you know, self regul I used to call it, you know, self regulating.

No, [00:25:00] I think it's a great term. 

Rich Lyons: Yeah. What, 

Jay Topper: what do you, what, what does that mean to you? And give me an example or two of that. 

Rich Lyons: Yeah, I mean, I think. There's a lot in that, like, I do think, like, I'll talk about it as a leader, and I think I hold everyone's a leader, right? It's not positional, and where are you leading people to, regardless of your position.

But, you know, when I was a CEO and I talked to a lot of entrepreneurs and other CEOs, younger CEOs, And I do have this conversation, you know, with them about being clear on what kind of culture they're creating, where are they leading people, and, and that goes directly to me to self care, because I kind of have this sense, like, I need to go into my office, I need to go be in front of my people, not wanting them to acknowledge me.

But wanting me to acknowledge them, you know, and the only way I can do that, I mean, this relates to parenting as well, right? The only way I [00:26:00] can do that is if I'm in good shape and what does good shape mean? It means. I feel affirmed. I, you know, I I'm eating well, I'm working out. I have good friends that I can talk to when I'm upset.

I have a coach, I have a mentor. I, you know, I'm expressing my upset, I'm getting reassurance. So then when I come in, I'm not like, Hey Jay, affirm me, affirm me. Look at what I did. I'm, you know. I'm have to do that to my customers. I have to do that to my employees. That's my job as CEO, chief executive officer.

It's my job. And if I'm not taking care of myself, I can promise you it will leak. And when I say it, what will leak? My reactivity will leak. My scarcity will leak. My hurt will leak. And then all of a sudden, what kind of culture do I have? I have a scarcity based culture. I have a reactive culture. I mean, that's not a customer focused culture because it's following me. [00:27:00]

You know, but that's not easy. I mean, we're all under pressure and we're all working a lot of hours. And that's self care, taking vacations, truly vacating, truly getting away and coming back in better shape so you can take on more. Like I always had a coach. Talk to my coach. Like sometimes I'd go in there, Jay, and I'd be like, I don't know if I'm doing the right thing.

Yeah. I can't say that to my company, but I need somewhere to express and just be like, I've lost it. Like, right. And that's why you have a coach and a mentor, someone that's going to hold your purpose and remind you of why you're doing it. Cause we forget while we're in the 

Jay Topper: fire. I think, I think that's fantastic.

I think the, the coaching I've done coaching and, and, uh, and early, early in my, my life, even in some personal therapy and, uh, and it's so incredibly powerful. I, I'm just a huge fan of it. And these coaches walked me through very complex business and [00:28:00] personal feelings attached to what was going on in the business, uh, twice, and it was incredibly helpful, uh, All they are is your advocate to get you back to where you're, you know, uh, you know, what, where you need to be, where they, where they've gotten to know you in the first place.

And you can't really trick them. You can't do it alone. You can't trick. Right. 

Rich Lyons: I mean, I think that's a hard lesson to learn. I couldn't, I don't know anyone that can, right? You need advocates, you need people to remind you, you need people. You know, to challenge you when you're wrong and, you know, support you and pick you up when you've been, when you've fallen down, cause we're all going to fall down, we all have those days.

And if you 

Jay Topper: have those people, you, it's much easier for you then to be that person to others. You, you told me a funny story. I'm going to make you repeat it here. Uh, is, uh, about your, because you, you portray yourself as, as very genuine and even down to your [00:29:00] website. You told me a story about even portraying that in a genuine nature about, you used to have one of the traits on your website, uh, as part of your culture, you know, good work life balance.

And that went through a bit of a metamorphosis, tell me about that. 

Rich Lyons: Yeah, it's a great story. I mean, when we started the company, you know, like we were just talking about, you start the company and you list these core values and, and list these principles and, you know, and we, customer first was first and this and that, we're listing all these things.

And one of them was work life balance. And I, I believe in that in the concept of it, but I mean, at the point I didn't realize, and it was a funny thing. A woman was working for me. She was our director of marketing and she took it off the website. She didn't even tell me she took it off the website and I noticed and I'm like, Why did you take that off the website?

And I was, I mean, I was, I was kind of pissed, right? [00:30:00] I mean, and she's like, it's not true. I'm like, what do you mean? It's not true. She's like, we don't have work life balance. We're a consulting firm. And I was so pissed. I remember I went to my coach and I was kind of like, I can't believe that she did that.

She didn't even ask me, she didn't tell me and this and that. And then, you know, like you're saying, just processing, like I needed to talk about it and, you know, and finally get to the point that she was right, you know, and I had to really think about it, you know, and get over myself a little bit and be like, Wait a second, when that, like we were just talking about, when that customer calls and their website's down, like people are staying up for two days, not sleeping, trying to fix a problem.

That's not balance. 

Jay Topper: No. 

Rich Lyons: Right? And when, and when you are a consultant, you kind of oftentimes are at the beck and call of the customer, right? And that's how [00:31:00] it should be. If we're going to say we're customer first and. Customer focused and customer centric. So it was, it was an amazing thing to then be like, okay, you're right.

So we went from having it as a kind of a value to actually the reverse, like every interview we had with a person, we were saying like, It's not a work-life balance job. So I mean, we went, we, you know, 180 did. Yeah. And we put on the website, you know, work hard, play hard, which is much more true. Yeah.

Because you, I mean, when you're in that crisis or you're trying to launch a project, or the website's down, I mean, you're busting your ass, but then when you're not, you're not. Right. And so. I mean, I think that's part of a culture too, to allow people to disagree, you know, even with me, my name's on the door, right?

And I tried to always have an open culture, like. Let's disagree, let's discuss things and let's come up with the best solution. But I do think that was a, that was a big [00:32:00] thing to kind of, you know, when we're hiring people to say, like, we're a consulting firm with the customer first. And so it's not going to be balanced all the time.

And. And we had a, uh, you know, a holiday brunch every year in Chicago and it was one of my favorite events and it became one of the favorites because, you know, people would bring their kids and we'd buy them little presents and we'd have Santa Claus there and elves. The reason I wanted to do it was because it gave me the opportunity to know, People to thank the spouses, to thank the kids because their mother, their father, they're working hard, which means they're away from that family and those unbalanced, you know, and in those times of crisis and just to do a little thing, it was a little thing, right?

And they loved it and it was a beautiful event, right? And it became like one of our highlights. People look forward to it. It was kind of the start of the season every year that we would do that [00:33:00]

Jay Topper: before we, uh, Uh, close out with my anecdotal question. I have one more question for you. Um, and, and again, you haven't heard this one before.

When, when I was at my last retailer, which was Chico's FAS, and, and I worked for a fantastic CEO, and, The values there, uh, that she came up with HR going through their turnaround right before I got there was to promote a kind world. Uh, I love that. And, and I watched this company for, for three years and we went through a lot of stuff and then we were bought.

But for three years, I just became this addict to the concept of kindness. And you can be direct and kind, you can be candid and kind, you can even be You know, disciplinary and kind, I mean, but that, that concept of kindness was just, it's just so, so, I was so proud to be able to say that and to be able to call people out on it.

And even with customers, you know, when it got that bad where, where I had to get involved, it's like, Hey, I'm sorry, we, we promote a kind world and this isn't kind. I [00:34:00] understand you're very frustrated and we're going to take care of you, but where do you place kindness? How does that resonate with you? 

Rich Lyons: I mean, that resonates a lot, actually.

It's, it's, it's interesting you bring that up. I mean, I, I, you know, I went back to this electrical engineering thing, like, I kind of had this concept of potential, right? Like, maximizing potential, you know, and potential is like, you know, the charge between two plates, you know? So, And I always thought, like, you know, I tried to bring my personal life and my business life together, and we talked a lot about, like, could we help our customers maximize their potential and maximize their potential online, because we're an e commerce company.

Yeah. But while we individually use our unique gifts and all maximize our own individual potentials, right? And then it kind of evolved, and it's funny, one of my coaches had said sometime, at one time, like, Rich, what you're saying is you want to be the biggest blessing you can be to your customers. And I was like, I can't ever say that.

Like I can't, I mean, you can't, you can't say [00:35:00] you want to be a blessing. I mean, I mean, this was early. I was like, and then next thing, you know, whatever, a year later, a couple of years later, I'm talking about, we're trying to be the biggest blessing we can be and to me that's kindness, right? Like just be, can I be a blessing?

Can I help? Can I use my gifts? Can I. You know, I, when I talk to entrepreneurs, like I love the work with young people that are just trying to make a positive impact on the world. Yep. I love it. Right. Cause their passion there and it doesn't matter what it is. It could be software, it could be services, but They're trying to make a difference, a positive difference, and those are the kind of people I want to be behind, right?

And can we be a blessing, right? And trust, back to trust, that it comes back, like I believe in karma, believe in doing the right thing, and it comes back, and it doesn't necessarily come back from that person, it's not a tit for tat, but it comes back in life. 

Jay Topper: No, it does. [00:36:00] It's a feel good thing. One way or another, it circles back around.

And I, I, I believe that too. And I think you're a blessing to me, by the way. So you've succeeded on the podcast. Last question for you. So, you know, you and I, uh, a long history of being a C level, you at the top spot, me serving that top spot and others. For somebody that's like a manager or a director that might be listening to this, maybe a VP, you know, what, what, and, and they're, they're aspiring and, and let's assume they have, you know, some ambition to, to positionally grow and scope grow and personally grow.

What advice, like, if you just met one at a, you know, at a bar or a cocktail party or whatever you, and somebody asked you, you know, what, what advice would you give them to navigate this, this whole. This whole emotive and social thing we've been talking about the last 40 minutes. What, what, what would you tell them?

Rich Lyons: I mean, there's probably a couple of things. Like I, I always go back to awareness, right? Like [00:37:00] to be aware. And, and I think that's a gift, like, cause even to be aware, like when you're working for someone and to be aware of when you're afraid, be aware of, you know, when you're hurt, be aware of when you're angry, but realize that that doesn't mean you have to do anything with that, but with the awareness, you have way more choice.

Yeah, because if we're just reacting in the moment, right, then it's like an automatic pilot versus take a breath, think for a minute. And you said, it's a great word, regulate, regulate yourself. The feelings are going on all the time, but it doesn't mean you have to blurt them out. It doesn't mean you have to say anything.

You know, you can take a breath, you can pause, you can come back to it the next day. There's, there's so much good in, Not, you know, hurting yourself sometimes by, by being rash and brash, you know? So I think the awareness is number one. And I think learn from people. I mean, sometimes you can learn from the person that [00:38:00] you're the most plugged into, because there's a reason, like when I'm just like, Oh my God, that person bothers me so much, there's a reason.

And if I can figure out that reason, gosh, I can learn a lot. You know, and I think the key to life, you know, that we're going big now, Jay, but is this kind of, you know, responsibility and authorship, right? Like I think we all like to blame and I'd made the joke earlier, you know, I blame my wife for everything.

Right. It's always her fault. But think about it. Intention is such a powerful thing. Like, you know, I always tell people, if you want to know what your intention is, look around you because this is your intention. Everything that I've created, consciously or unconsciously. Let's make it clear that unconscious we've created all of this.

So we can't blame anyone. And if we want to make it different, it's up to us to make it different. And if we don't want to make it different, let's just be [00:39:00] clear that we're choosing not to make it different, you know? So for the young people, like I think. Can you serve that, you know, your manager? Can you serve your senior manager?

Can you serve the CEO? Can you get out of yourself and do the right thing and learn as much as you can from the people around you? Be a fricking sponge, right? I learned so much from people I worked with. Both good and bad, you know, and not about them that they're a good person or they're a bad person, but just things I liked and things I didn't like.

Jay Topper: Now, I love the learning aspect that, that I've often said that, that everyone I've been a peer to and a subordinate to. They were all my mentors. They didn't necessarily know it. Uh, because you don't have to be a mentor to be a mentor. You need to be a protege to be able to, to create a mentor world around you, whether they know it or not.

And it's that whole learning thing. Yeah, absolutely. Rich, it was great to spend time with you. I really appreciate it. Uh, it was a lot of fun. 

Rich Lyons: Thanks, Jay. It was great being with you. Thanks [00:40:00] for having me on.

Jay Topper: That was a lot of fun talking to Rich. I knew from the moment I met him. Which, maybe I met him like seven or eight years ago, but really I met him for the first time in a mature state of life, uh, just like a month or two ago, and I, you can tell when you meet someone that has some of the same philosophies you do, I, and I learn a lot from him, uh, three tips and tricks I took out of that, which I think are good for everybody.

It doesn't matter what age, rank, uh, You are in an organization or what you're trying or not trying to do is number one is awareness. The more aware you are of your feelings and the root of the feelings of people you're interacting with, uh, fear, hurt, anger, sadness, joy, the more that you're aware of those, the more choices you have how to react and to decide what type of outcome you want to help enable.

And I think that's incredibly powerful. It's not easy at all. Uh, number two is. You know, [00:41:00] learn from everyone around you. And it doesn't mean you have to necessarily like them. Maybe you don't even trust them, but there's always people around you. I've always said my whole career, it's not about being a mentor.

It's about being a protege, everyone around you. Uh, our mentors, including people that work for you. Some of my strongest mentors were the, the super smart engineers that were a lot smarter than I was. And we had these unique skills that we could kind of marry together. And the third one is let people know who you are.

And the more you can trust giving a little bit more of yourself, uh, around who you are, uh, the more that comes back to you. And, and then it just makes those human connections a lot stronger and creates a little faster path to trust. So, Hey, those are some simple concepts for today's episode of Chiefly Digital.

You can find us on Spotify, YouTube, and Apple. Chiefly Digital, my Stanley mug from my daughter. Have a great day. And I hope you enjoyed [00:42:00] listening.