[00:00:00] Jay Topper: The world of commerce is undergoing a revolution. Today's consumer expects a buying experience that is nothing short of perfection. Your company's digital IQ has quickly become a new standard that drives growth and loyalty. Welcome to Chiefly Digital: The digital leader's guide to modern commerce.
Welcome to a new edition of Chiefly Digital. Today I have with me Steph Urban, who was most recently the head of e-commerce and marketing at the Vince Camuto group, is the head of stephurban.com consulting group, and Steph is also in stealth mode with her own startup, which we'll talk about a little bit later.
And I have a little bit of roof work going on from one of the recent hurricanes, and there's a lot of pounding and hammers, so I'll try to mute in between, but if you hear that, there's It's people fixing my roof from Hurricane Ian two years ago. We just navigated that mess. So, welcome to Chiefly Digital.
[00:01:02] Stephanie Urban: Thanks, Jay, excited to be here.
[00:01:04] Jay Topper: And I know you said I could call you Steph or Stephanie, so I might mix that up throughout the podcast a little bit.
[00:01:09] Stephanie Urban: No worries.
[00:01:10] Jay Topper: So, the first thing I want to talk about is your career. I love to get to know people a little more like we talked the last time. And the first question I have for you, you have a little bit of a career in fashion and beauty. So how did you get into fashion and beauty?
[00:01:27] Stephanie Urban: So in my senior year of college, I actually started a fashion blog because I knew that was something that I was interested in. And both of my parents were journalists and actually encouraged me not to go into traditional journalism, but to focus more on digital.
Um, cause that's the way the media was shifting at that time. So I moved to 2008 and was continuing my blog, actually. Um, had a business card made that said marketer by day and fashion editor by night and I was attending fashion week and different events and kind of using that as a networking opportunity in New York.
When I first got there and eventually landed my first opportunity with an interview at Ann Taylor. So that was kind of the beginning of it.
[00:02:07] Jay Topper: Tell me about your role at Ann Taylor, what you learned there, what you, you know, how that propelled you forward and the experience because you were there for a bit of time. So talk about that a little bit.
[00:02:17] Stephanie Urban: Yeah. So Ann Taylor was a really amazing opportunity for me to learn from an incredible set of leaders. When I joined, Uh, my VP of marketing had just been hired to kind of build the team out and e commerce was starting to hit kind of hybrid growth mode. So I got to learn from really incredible leaders across merchandising, planning, CRM.
We were really advanced with CRM at the time and just get a little bit of a taste of everything across the total e com business because we were going from, Small, I think I was marketing hire number two, to large in a very short, um, time frame. And that also let me kind of get experience across different channels.
So I wasn't a siloed marketer. Just working in the email space, I got to do a little bit of acquisition, a little bit of retention. Started working really closely with that CRM team. And just got to kind of see how a larger retail business functions and absorb everything like a sponge. So, it was a really great first role for me.
[00:03:13] Jay Topper: Yeah. And you were, uh, when you started, you were a marketing coordinator, so you know, relatively junior. I'm, I'm guessing. Yes. And you brought up on our last conversation, uh, you know, what you learned. Uh, you know, I call it the edge, the edge of the room philosophy, uh, which I think is great advice for, for people starting out or even later in their career. Uh, tell me a little bit about that.
[00:03:34] Stephanie Urban: Yes. So every Monday morning we would have a big meeting where coordinators put a tent and we sat on the edge of the room, but it was really an open discussion across all of the VPs cross functionally to talk about, okay, what promos were we running, what worked, what didn't work, hearing the numbers at a really granular level and, and, and really kind of waking up to.
How in depth you need to know and understand your KPIs. Um, and also just have a, a broader knowledge of what's going on across the business outside of the function that you work in. So I was of course in marketing, but quickly realized if I didn't, Have a good grasp on merchandising and what's working from a product perspective.
You know, that was going to hinder me longterm. So starting to learn those things, um, was really valuable experience for me and hear about, hear how VP levels kind of talk and think about things. So that definitely made an impact on me going further into my career and, ongoingly now as well. So. I think with everything kind of moving remotely, things have changed and some of those opportunities aren't there anymore.
If you have a remote team, you know, you're not typically having VP level meetings and the coordinators are sitting in on that call. So I think as executives and leaders, we need to think about what kind of exposure can you give to, um, your more junior team members and the team members that you're hoping to move up and advance, um, to give them that exposure and those opportunities to either present or learn from and hear what are driving those strategic decisions.
And so I think you just have to be really mindful. And purposeful about how you build those opportunities into the calendar, because obviously, you know, you don't want to have too many meetings either. But if you don't have those learning opportunities, then you're not letting someone grow.
[00:05:18] Jay Topper: Even at my level, uh, being a C level for a while, if I'm in a board meeting or if I'm in, you know, at my last company at Chico's, if I was in a merchandising meeting and I'm not an expert in merchandising, I think having that concept of being able to listen and synthesize with people around you that have expertise that's not yours, that's yours, that's yours, that's yours.
Uh, it helps well round you and you have to really hone your listening skills there to accomplish that. And I'm a big fan of that. So you were in marketing proper the whole time at Ann Taylor. How did you get exposed? Cause later on in your career, you had both e commerce, the website and the marketing.
How, how important are those two? Where's the natural tension between those two areas? When you think of marketing and e commerce, sometimes they're separate, sometimes they're together. Talk a little bit about that dynamic, either at Ann Taylor or just in general.
[00:06:08] Stephanie Urban: I would say it's, it's really important that those two function really closely together.
I think some of the most effective organizations have, um, both of those orgs rolling up into a singular leader so that there's really clear goals and objectives. Um, across that org and that it does feel like this collaborative effort working together to accomplish the digital growth goals. Again, great learning ground at Ann Taylor, where I was working very closely with the e comm teams on a daily basis, not just to get homepages and, Site experiences and landing pages live, but also to make sure that we were showing the product in the best way possible.
And then doing projects like we built the e receipts program back then, you know, that was, I mean, we're, we're talking 15 years ago at this point, but e receipts was a new project at that time and, and building out that customer journey in tandem with my e commerce partners. So that gave me a really good kind of cross functional experience that I then brought into future roles like Tart at Tart.
I had the opportunity to kind of build the e comm team up when I joined it was just myself and two others kind of doing a little bit of everything across e comm and marketing. And we quickly realized there was a big opportunity for us to re platform and redesign the site, move off of a custom solution onto a larger scale platform, which was Demandware at the time.
And so, we took a step back and really evaluated, like, what is the tech solution that's going to make the most sense for our size of company, for our brand, and for our customer, um, and built that tech stack from the ground up. And that was, you know, a new, I guess, role for me, but I was overseeing marketing, and a lot of my marketing team kind of helped put that to life because we were a smaller team at the time.
And I think that helps bring that customer eye to the decisions that we're making from a tech standpoint as well.
[00:07:54] Jay Topper: For those that don't know about Tarte, tell people a little bit about what Tarte does, what they sell.
[00:07:58] Stephanie Urban: Tarte Cosmetics is a leading makeup and skincare brand that's sold in major retailers like Sephora and Ulta. And they're known for having great natural ingredients.
[00:08:10] Jay Topper: And when you have, uh, marketing, and I, I've talked to, before on a few other podcasts about this concept of natural tension, where, where, you know, not everything is perfect, and, and sometimes the site Uh, marketing will say, Hey, I'm giving you enough traffic, you know, I'm giving you more traffic than before, but then e commerce will say, yeah, but it's not as qualified traffic and, or whatever it happens to be, or the landing pages haven't been optimized.
How do you stimulate good, healthy conversations that are what I call positive tension? But keep the positivity rolling at the same time.
[00:08:45] Stephanie Urban: I think it comes down to sharing, working towards, and celebrating goals together. Having really clear expectations about who does what and making sure those lines are clear.
I think sometimes you could walk into a legacy organization and the lines aren't that clear about who's responsible for what between those two groups. So, again, documenting processes, making sure that there's efficiencies found there, and then just really clear roles and responsibilities, which Sounds super basic, but if it hasn't been tackled for a long time, then you sometimes uncover some, some hiccups there.
I also think it requires leadership alignment from the top down as well, making sure that if it's not one singular leader, then those two leaders are working really closely together on, you know, how are we going to develop the best experiences for our customers and make sure that we're meeting the expectations of both marketing and products.
Um, et cetera. Also taking a step back and doing exercises together like customer journey mapping. That's something that I like to do annually with my teams and that would include both e com and marketing and kind of walk through kind of what is every single step that a customer is seeing coming from every single different channel and what are those silos and, and issues that we can kind of break down.
And improve. And what are the biggest issues that we can tackle most quickly to enhance the experience for our customers?
[00:10:00] Jay Topper: Yeah, and you mentioned leadership being on board. I've worked for some organizations where finding who, whose fault is something is the doctrine. And that always makes people kind of retreat into themselves and be a little defensive versus more of a hero culture where, hey, if you find a problem, whether it's your area or not, You're contributing, and we applaud you, and where you don't have to have that fear, and so the top down approach, you have to have leaders that embrace that concept of positive tension, too.
So, you've got a fashion background, fashion and beauty, and you've been in that for a while, but you also have had to learn a lot around data and analytics, and especially in performance marketing, which is incredibly challenging. How did you get skilled? At data and analytics and, and how much do you embrace that versus, Hey, I need help with this. Or how hands on do you get, because it's a huge component of your, of your roles.
[00:10:55] Stephanie Urban: Yes, I kind of grew up in email marketing. Um, even prior to Ann Taylor and I think email has always kind of been that place where you have the most data sitting and the most usable place for your data as well. So I was able to kind of do all the nitty gritty work that is required of all the way down to a coordinator, but then eventually into director level roles within the email and CRM space.
So. As I mentioned, the Ann Taylor's ERM team is someone that I learned from a ton during my time there. We were doing really advanced work from an omni channel standpoint, targeting customers and, and basically, the biggest goal there was getting customers to shop both in store and online within a six month period, knowing that that then drove, uh, uh, the largest CLV opportunity for us and, and longest standing customers.
So We created lots of marketing around that goal, and so that was, you know, earlier on in my career, and helped me think about how much data I would need to have in my future places of work in order to, one, just be able to do projects like that, which are now semi outdated, um, but then build digital first organizations that do have enough data so that you can be personalizing experiences, that you do understand who the customer is, and Um, especially in D2C environments where you also sell in wholesale, you know, you have customers coming into places like Nordstrom and Sephora, and those are black boxes to you as far as who those customers are.
So leveraging customer survey data and really speaking to customers, even on a, you know, customer service level basis or in person, I love doing in person focus groups to hear about what is the actual behavior of your customer and how are they shopping across retailers with you as well. Lots of different things there, but.
I think, I think about, um, kind of the digital trifecta being customer content and conversion and the customer is at the center of absolutely everything that you do. And in order to build the right content and drive the conversion, you have to have an understanding of who it is that's landing on your site, um, and develop those experiences around him or her.
[00:13:01] Jay Topper: I like that. And I also liked when you brought up digital first, because. A lot of people use the word digital first and it has a lot of connotations and it doesn't necessarily mean a channel of buying. It's about that data centricity and that customer centricity, uh, being able to act fast on data, test and learn.
I know you're working on a stealth startup right now. Do you start with that digital first mentality right out of the gate to get that right?
[00:13:26] Stephanie Urban: Yeah, I think so. I mean, I'm hoping before the end of the year to do a lot of survey work, um, before I get into. You know, kind of product level detail. And so I think starting with voice of the customer or target audience, I guess, in that scenario, and really hearing what are the problems that, you know, we think that we can solve for them and what are they interested in and what are they most likely to react to before we even get into the development.
So. That's something I have a little bit of experience with in my past and definitely think that's a great starting point for us as we move into the next mode.
[00:14:00] Jay Topper: In your roles, have you, uh, have you, uh, had tight relationships with the data and analytics team, or were your team more self service oriented?
[00:14:09] Stephanie Urban: I've had both. Uh, again, at Ann Taylor, it was, uh, a little bit. Uh, we had a consultant. And otherwise, my team was really self sufficient as far as pulling channel level detail, and then that's something that I built into my future teams at both Tartt and Vince Camuto, which is, everyone should have, at even an entry level, a deep understanding of the KPIs that they impact on a day to day basis and be able to go in and pull those things without the help of an analytics team.
I think it just helps with agility, but also Um, kind of going back to our earlier point about learning on the outside of the room is without that deep understanding of those KPIs, you're not going to be able to advance. So I think really understanding the ins and outs of that, but then expanding beyond the channel that you're responsible for too.
So, you know, I always encourage open dialogue around our hindsight meetings and, and go out of my way to encourage junior team members to ask questions if they don't understand something that someone's saying, which only helps them longterm understand kind of the whole. Dynamic of the digital marketing.
[00:15:11] Jay Topper: Yeah, and sometimes in those big meetings and even in small meetings, uh, the amount of data that's presented and the thickness of these big spreadsheets I've been uh, in these rooms, we're really the only person that understands the full portfolio of data they're sharing is the person that built it.
I've always have been a big believer in what you just said is knowing your KPIs at the individual function level and then reporting on those and keeping it really simple that leave the really in depth stuff for, for your own department, your own function when you're in your sort of working groups and for the broader group, you know, it's, it's not necessarily just a report out.
It's actually showing the KPIs that matter and where that impact is. You had a good run at Ann Taylor. You learned a lot. I'm always going to love the edge of the room, uh, analogy and hope you keep that with you forever in your career. And then you went to Tarte Cosmetics and you had a good run there.
And then you went to Vince Camuto and you had another good run. Tell me about that, uh, company and what you learned and what you picked up. Uh, and how that helps shape who you are today.
[00:16:15] Stephanie Urban: Sure, so I hopped over to Vince Camuto and they were in a really good position from a digital standpoint. It wasn't, you know, ground up.
They were already in the 20 millions and, but they were hitting kind of a stall. So they had the typical COVID spike, which many brands saw, and then they weren't able to comp that going into the following year. And so, uh, I think pieces of it were the team needed to be more structured. I brought in new leadership across the three teams that I like to have, which is acquisition, retention, and site content.
And so having a new leadership team with fresh eyes come in and know that our goal was high growth mode, um, you know, was step one. And then I think one of the other big projects we focused on was. Improving our content and content output. So content when I first joined was very heavy on branded content, but it wasn't digitally shot, it wasn't shot in the sizes that we needed for social necessarily.
It wasn't product oriented necessarily. And so we did a lot of testing and learning to kind of proof point what it is that we needed to graduate into, and then focus on how can we increase number of assets that we're creating. Um, for digital and especially within the paid media space, like I think paid social continues to be a place where if you don't have the right content, you're never going to win.
Um, and so getting to the, to the place there that we were agile, responding to the product that was working, responding to what she liked the most and was responding to on social. And then eventually we even got to a place where we impacted product as well. So social and influencer strategy. Became a major part of our initiatives for the last 48 months, basically focusing on.
How do you use the influencers that are working to then develop product and then launch that product and push it for a quarter. And so those became multimillion dollar opportunities for our brands.
[00:18:12] Jay Topper: So you you've talked about all the different marketing channels that you've had some deep exposure to starting with email, where you cut your teeth and now you've moved into, you know, ones that are still common, but a little less mainstream than email when you think of influencers.
And I know on our last call, we talked a little bit about. TikTok. Talk about how important those channels were to you in your, in your recent roles because they had a play. And I think TikTok, especially in fashion and beauty, uh, is making, you know, faster inroads in some of the other channels or some of the other, uh, portfolio products that people are selling.
[00:18:46] Stephanie Urban: Yes, I think it's the melding of brand marketing and performance marketing. So we, we like to call Influencer a performance marketing channel because it is easier to measure these days. There's different ways of doing that with either promo code usage or through the affiliate programs that you're running with them.
And then, you know, kind of top tier being actually launching this product and being able to create full collections with these influencers. And measure that over time, and so that, you know, is kind of its own whole work stream, um, and it's, in itself, when you start launching these collaborations that are, you know, it's a nine month product life cycle, you're developing it with the influencer, you're then creating a launch strategy around that event from a 360 marketing standpoint, every single channel is touching that.
And including kind of events surrounding that. So Influencer became a really big focus for the brand marketing team, but we, you know, added in KPIs and goals and expectations around that so that we knew that it was a profitable program at the end of the day. So that was a big piece of what we were doing to win.
And then yes, TikTok as part of that too. So as part of that digital content strategy that we improved over time. Video first and more kind of organic video content versus brand heavy, overly produced video content. We had a couple of different content creators in house that would help us create that.
And we would sometimes also leverage micro influencers to create quick content that still felt really organic for TikTok specifically. And we were lucky we got a few different viral moments during fall last year. Um, during launch, when we launched our wide calf boots, influencer that we had just gifted, we hadn't paid her for any placements.
Her video took off. I think we had over 2 million views and in just a few short weeks on how excited she was that our wide calf boot fit her so nicely and that she'd never had a fashion forward boot that she loved so much. So. That took off, um, and that was prior to TikTok Shops kind of being as big as it is now.
So TikTok Shops is something that I believe the brand is working on now, but we were still able to kind of measure the impact of that virality and it's not something that you can just kind of create and expect something to go viral, but I think having the right content strategy specifically for TikTok is something that all brands need to be playing in now.
[00:21:07] Jay Topper: So, uh, brand marketing. Uh, we did not talk about this on our last call that much, but, uh, I, I have a pretty good grasp. And I think a lot of people with a tech and e commerce background understand, you know, the ins and outs of performance marketing at some level. Brand marketing is not a place I have a lot of expertise.
Uh, it's much harder to measure. You get into halo effects and MTA and, and MMM and all this other stuff. Uh, but it represents your brand and in the long run, it pays off. How do you navigate that when, when it's almost impossible to perfectly measure it?
[00:21:42] Stephanie Urban: I think there's different ways. And I, I think EMV is one that I guess consistently I've, I've measured across my time.
[00:21:50] Jay Topper: And explain, explain that to, to, to the audience.
[00:21:52] Stephanie Urban: Sure. So EMV is really measuring the impact of your organic reach, um, and quantifying that. So it's. Your impressions times your CPM, so I would take your kind of 12, last 12 months CPM, um, from your paid media program and use that to, to measure the impact.
And so that's something that we've consistently used at multiple brands that I've been with in the past, but it's not foolproof. And I would say that some more traditional media outlets kind of still over estimate what their actual impressions are. So it's definitely not something that I would necessarily be presenting ongoingly to a CFO, for instance, but it does help you at least benchmark across your different organic outreach.
What, what that benchmark is. I think beyond that, I always like to look at Google trends as well and see what your brand demand is over time. You should be able to feel the impact of that within your paid programs as well. Um, and then just traffic, uh, when you're building these organic programs. And for instance, when you have one of these viral TikTok moments, like you should be seeing the traffic kind of spike in from there as well.
Um, so you can see it, I think it does require some analysis and, um, there's also the incrementality testing. So we've done a lot of incrementality testing across video. I think. That's one of my favorite channels right now, and I think that that gives you the most bang for your buck, and lets you hit really targeted audiences, so that's a place that I would like to continue to play.
So I think it's kind of just having this full, fully pronged strategy and making sure that you're trying to hit the right audience at the right time.
[00:23:33] Jay Topper: Yeah, that's, that's cool. And forever complex. I don't know if it's ever going to be crystal clear when we're, when you're trying to measure that. And when I thought, I think about brand marking and the content and content creation, which is another area of absolutely no expertise and the importance of that, and yet really trying to figure out, You know, use those performance channel to be able to measure the impact of things that maybe are a little less hard to measure is, is so critical and agreeing.
You mentioned CFO and getting a agreement on how we're going to measure it, because even if it's not perfect, at least you can look at it month on month and start to ascertain trends across it. When you think about AI, whether it's in the company you've worked for or what your, you know, how your brain is working.
For your start startup, where you want to start there. Does that come into play in your ecosystem at all?
[00:24:23] Stephanie Urban: I think while we're on creative, I think AI has developed so many different efficiencies within that creative suite and being able to either replicate assets for different sizes very quickly, also creating quick opportunities for, for small brands and.
And small creators to really easily create their own assets with their existing branding elements. So, uh, Canva has also come up with a lot of really great AI tools within their suite that I've been using as I'm on this startup journey. But also personalization. I've been really impressed with some of the tools that are starting to come out for site personalization as well as merchandising personalization on site.
I think that's something that, you know, there've always been these tools and, and of course they actually probably had AI elements as well, but. It's learning more quickly now and being able to impact the site and truly provide those one to one shopping personalization elements is something that drives tremendous conversion opportunity.
[00:25:22] Jay Topper: If you were giving advice to somebody that was, you know, maybe a director level, uh, in a retail brand that's looking to become, Uh, you know, vice president and ultimately a C level. What advice would you give them?
[00:25:37] Stephanie Urban: I would say be curious and be ready to problem solve. I think if you can find areas of opportunity for the business and come to the table and proof point, you know, what that could actually do for the business and how you would be able to do that without negatively impacting your existing job scope, um, and, and truly be bringing new opportunities to the brand.
And I think that. That's kind of a route, uh, to take and, and get a step ahead because I think with all marketing and digital marketing, especially there's always more that you can do, but prioritizing what those bigger win opportunities are for the brand is really important. And I guess on the AI note too, for instance, like there are so many different proof of concepts.
opportunities that are available now with vendors that you could just run a three month test. And so is there an opportunity there where you evaluate a few different vendors, you have x amount of budget, and you know that you want to hit minimum 3x ROI? Do you think that you could present a use case like that for the business and make, you A big impact.
So I think just kind of finding, being able to find those opportunities and actually execute through them is something that's been successful for me. And I think it's really important for all digital brands to kind of stay in the forefront and make sure that we know. What's, what's working and not working as we continue to move in this fast paced environment.
[00:27:05] Jay Topper: And then you're in stealth mode for a startup. So first of all, uh, why did you decide to, to start the exploration of your own company? And then what, what are you going through? Like, what's your process like? Like, you know, where are you in that process? And how did you even determine where to start?
[00:27:22] Stephanie Urban: Yeah, I am. I'm really excited to finally be working on my own brand and I guess after my experiences of working on growing other brands, I just realized that this is kind of the best next step for me and the best timing for me to kind of take a step back and try to do it on my own. And so we have been doing a lot of research.
So really what categories, um, Have the most opportunity. Beauty is very saturated, so I don't, unfortunately, don't think I'm going to land there even though I love it. And so, doing the research and making sure that I'm clear on who the competitive set is, um, who's winning, what's working in this space.
Like how crowded it is, who's showing up on TikTok shops, you have to be ready to be a creator now if you're a founder. So that's actually something that, you know, I'm not necessarily comfortable with out of the gate, but I will learn it. And, um, I love creating content, but I haven't had to be on camera constantly.
So that's just going to be a whole new ballgame there. Um, but I think I know what I want my tech stack to be. So that piece is, is done, but it's really figuring out kind of. The execution around launch and making sure that we're going after the right goals. And like I said, I think surveys are, are the next step that I'm working on to make sure that we're headed in the right direction and that there is.
Demand for this brand. And so that's where I'm at.
[00:28:52] Jay Topper: And then you're part of the Gilmore family foundation. I saw that on your LinkedIn profile. We talked about it a little bit before. I know you have a personal connection there, so I'd love for you to get a shameless plug for them.
[00:29:03] Stephanie Urban: Yeah, sure. So the Gilmore family foundation was founded by my best friend from college and her husband, after they navigated through the, the trying, um, Diagnosis for rare diseases.
Actually, there are two kids have three different rare disease diagnosis and basically going through that journey. They realized that there isn't a dedicated place for families and children to go when they're going through this really difficult time. And so every dollar raised right now is helping us break ground on the first ever.
Rare disease program at Children's Wisconsin. So we're really excited about that. Um, it's already started. It's going to officially be, um, opening the full wing in 2025. And so we've already made a really big impact, but excited to see where this goes and how many families we can help. And if you're interested, you can visit the GilmerFamilyFoundation.
org.
[00:29:55] Jay Topper: That's awesome, and I hope, and I still have the banging on my roof going, so apologies for that, but I look forward to maybe a year from now having you back on the podcast and giving an update on your journey on the, on your startup, because that's super exciting and And gutsy and fun and everything all rolled into one.
So, uh, thanks for sharing some of that, uh, with us today. And thank you, Stephanie, for joining. I hope this was enjoyable for you.
[00:30:20] Stephanie Urban: Yes. Thanks, Jay. This was great.
[00:30:23] Jay Topper: Thank you for joining the most recent episode of Chiefly Digital with Steph Urban. Loved talking to Steph. I picked up a couple of things. One is I loved her edge of the room analogy that if you're young or In your career, or even if you've been around in your career and you're in the presence of a lot of other people that are, are talking about areas of the business, you're not an expert of to be listening.
And the first word of advice that came for her, for people that want to advance their career is curiosity. And I'm a big believer of that. And the second thing is, is this importance between marketing and e commerce. There's a lot of important relationships in retail, marketing and technology, merchandise and supply chain.
You have all these different relationships that you have to juggle, but I don't know that any are more important than having that natural, positive tension, uh, between marketing and the e commerce site. And that really spoke to me as well. Uh, we'll check in with Steph a year from now and see how our startup is going.
I hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you for joining us again. You can find Chiefly Digital on YouTube, Spotify, Apple. I'm Jay Topper with Chiefly Digital.
Jay Topper 
39M 21S